Foreign Policy Blogs

A British Invasion of Zimbabwe?

Over at The New Republic James Kirchick (whose work, frankly, I have little use for most of the time) wonders, based on idle comments from Bulawayo's Archbishop Pius Ncube, whether Great Britain should invade Zimbabwe and remove Mugabe. While Kirchick makes some fundamentally (if somewhat obvious) decent points, I’m not certain that an invasion of Zimbabwe, initiated from a former colonial metropole, is viable, practical, sensible, or desirable. But Kirchick's article does point out the frustration that at least a few outside observers have over Mugabe's ability to run roughshod in Zimbabwe, eliciting little more than finger waving, if that.

While a Great Britain-initiated invasion seems like a bad idea, what about a South Africa-initiated and led invasion to which western powers provid some overt support? Mugabe is old, but depending on old despots to die away too often results in significant and unfortunate outliers from actuarial tables while in the meantime those subject to the despot's rule tend to suffer, never mind what could result in the succession crisis.

The current world climate has created an environment of knee-jerk opposition to the use of force, and that response may even be understandable. But current circumstances should not blind us to the fact that force is sometimes necessary to counter force, and Mugabe is nothing if not forceful. Maybe military action should not be the option of first resort, but we are sort of beyond talk about “first resorts” now anyway, are we not?

 
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Comments (32)

  1. toddkidd Wednesday - 18 / 07 / 2007
    A British invasion of Zimbabwe would be the worst mistake the former colonical master could make. The majority of black Zimbabweans support Mugabe along with Africans throughtout the continent. I'm black American and I support Mugabe on the land reform program. God gave Africa to the black man and he has a right to take back the land. The British would never allow foreigners to own over 75% of arable British land? Why should Africans feel any different. Mugabe may have made mistakes but his position on the land is right and I admire him for having the "guts" to do the right thing. He has restored the dignity of black people world wide and if imperialism was ever defeated it was in southern africa. The land reform program will work given time. Whites had total control of Zimbabwe for over 90 years using native blacks to gain their wealth in Zimbabwe. If whites in South Africa, Namibia and Kenya do not share the land, then I feel the situation we be worse than in Zimbabwe. I don't hate whites but I resent their need to dominate blacks on every level. The "WEST" want to maintain white priviledge in Zimbabwe; they don't really care about black people owning and prospering on their own native land. The British are dead wrong for formenting violence and destruction in Zimbabwe. People of color world wide are watching the British and what they are doing in Zimbabwe is totally wrong. This is shameful!
  2. Derek Catsam Wednesday - 18 / 07 / 2007
    toddkidd -- Thanks so much for reading and for responding. While I find your response thought provoking, ultimately I also find it wrong on so many levels that I am going to reply to it point by point. I will place your comments in quotation marks and will precede mine with ***. "A British invasion of Zimbabwe would be the worst mistake the former colonical master could make." *** I'm not certain it would be the worst mistake it could make, but I see where you are going: British invasion = bad idea. So far, fair enough. And in keeping with what i wrote when i effectively asserted that a British invasion would = bad idea. "The majority of black Zimbabweans support Mugabe along with Africans throughtout the continent." ** This assertion is absolute nonsense. The only evidence we might have for Zimbabwean support of Mugabe would be election results, and every election has been characterized by brutality and intimidation against the opposition, which, by the way, is also black. If you have some evidence for your assertion, please levy it. But let's not simply maintain that Africans support Mugabe, which is largely unfounded. And even if proven, that does not make it right. Or should I remind you of what the majority of southerners believed during the era of Jim Crow? "I'm black American and I support Mugabe on the land reform program." *** Your being black and American is 100% irrelevant to this issue. If you support Mugabe on land reform, and especially if you support him 100% my guess is that you are a black American who is woefully ignorant of the realities of Mugabe's "land reform", which he wielded not as a social or economic reform but rather as a weapon for years before he allowed his cronies to seize land willy nilly with little planning, and then allowed much of that land to lie largely dormant. You may well support the idea of land reform -- so do I, and so do most Africa observers. What we don't support is land reform as a weapon and land reform that destroys the country's agricultural capacity. "God gave Africa to the black man and he has a right to take back the land." *** God-given arguments don't much impress me. They cannot be proven and I don't by the argument of authority of invoking God to determine earthbound policy questions. But let's assume you are right -- does it also follow that God preordained that the land also go to loyal members of ZANU-PF? Did God also prefer that the land go to those members of ZANU-PF with guns? I'm just curious. The Lord, after all, does work in mysterious ways. I'm curious about your pipeline to God's specific policy prescriptions and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. "The British would never allow foreigners to own over 75% of arable British land? Why should Africans feel any different." ** I think you transposed your question mark and your period. But no matter. Again, if you can show me where I have opposed land reform, I'll give you a thousand dollars (Zim dollars, since you are so enamored of Mugabe's running of the economy, but a thousand dollars nonetheless). Africans (for whom you apparently have anointed yourself spokesman) are not being asked to yield land to England, so against whom, precisely, are you arguing right now? "Mugabe may have made mistakes but his position on the land is right and I admire him for having the "guts" to do the right thing." *** Mugabe MAY have made mistakes? Do you think so? His position on land reform is, again, wrong. You are again confusing the general principle with the question of implementation, which has been a disaster for the Africans in Zimbabwe. I have no idea why you use the scare quotes around "guts." I'm also not sure what guts it takes for a dictatorial president to allow thugs to seize land by force without having an actual coherent plan in place. Apparently you and I have a dramatically different conception of political courage. "He has restored the dignity of black people world wide and if imperialism was ever defeated it was in southern africa." ** While this professor who writes on Southern African issues for the Foreign Policy Association appreciates being lectured to about the fight against imperialism in southern Africa, I have no idea what reasonable person can look at Mugabe's Zimbabwe in 2007 and decide that the best word to describe it is "dignity." "The land reform program will work given time." ** This land reform program has already failed, full stop. a revised or newly implemented program might work, though what has already happened will make implementation of a successful program all the more difficult. "Whites had total control of Zimbabwe for over 90 years using native blacks to gain their wealth in Zimbabwe." *** Yes, we all know that this is true, but what does it have to do with Mugabe's policies in 2007? What does it have to do with Mugabe's willingness to beat and kill those who oppose him? What does it have to do with policies of forced removals of hundreds of thousands of Africans in Zimbabwe? in other words, what do hoary historical platitudes have to do with this particular discussion? "If whites in South Africa, Namibia and Kenya do not share the land, then I feel the situation we be worse than in Zimbabwe." *** Yes, land reform is an issue in many African countries. Apparently your preferred solution, which you embraced just a few sentences before, is to have the president's political supporters go out on their own and take the land by force without a coherent overarching strategy. Cunning. "I don't hate whites but I resent their need to dominate blacks on every level." ** I've been holding off on my ace in the hole on this one, but your platitides are killing me, so I'm going to start setting myself up now. Question: Whose initial idea was a possible invasion of Zimbabwe by Great Britain? "The "WEST" want to maintain white priviledge in Zimbabwe; they don't really care about black people owning and prospering on their own native land." *** ANSWER: Pius Ncube. He's African. He's the Catholic Archbishop of Bulawayo. Anyway, you were saying? "The British are dead wrong for formenting violence and destruction in Zimbabwe." ** Since you chose to use the present tense, I'm going to ask: What violence is Great Britain fomenting in Zimbabwe? This is all in response to the suggestion of an African in a rather prominent position who opposes Mugabe. I realize you are black, but you don't get to speak for all Africans. that would be, oh, what's the word? -- a bit intellectually imperialistic, not to mention incredibly paternalistic. "People of color world wide are watching the British and what they are doing in Zimbabwe is totally wrong." ** Again, what are the British doing in Zimbabwe that is, like, totally wrong? Would it kill you actually to know what is going on in Zimbabwe before venting your outrage? Because you are aiming it at the wrong people. "This is shameful!" *** WHAT is shameful? My ultimate opposition to such an invasion from London? My support of possible South African action? Archbishop Ncube's assertion? Kirchick's article? Your knee-jerk responses? Vague pronoun usage helps no one. Least of all, you. Thanks again. But please try to be more thoughtful before going off half-cocked on an issue you clearly feel emotionally more than you actually understand. Derek
  3. mjmckay Wednesday - 18 / 07 / 2007
    just swung by from the TNR TalkBack attached to Kirchick's article and I appreciate your thoughts on this. as a matter of fact, the schooling you were forced to give toddkidd above serves as a useful primer. I don't have a whole bunch of use for Kirchick most of the time either, but I think you come close, by omission, to one of the "crimes" he usually commits by commission: not quite accurately summarizing the point of the article about which he is giving comment. To whit, "While Kirchick makes some fundamentally (if somewhat obvious) decent points, I'm not certain that an invasion of Zimbabwe, initiated from a former colonial metropole, is viable, practical, sensible, or desirable." Yes, JK did make some obvious points (even to a person like me whose primary exposure to Zimbabwe was through Wilbur Smith novels 20 years ago), but your conclusion in that quote above that you are not certain lends the sense that you are standing in opposition to JK's conclusions. JK's conclusion is that like you he thinks it is not feasible for the UK to handle the problem militarily, Unlike JK so many times, give him his due and accurately reflect his point as stated. Thanks again for point this blog out on TNR, I'll try come back now and again. Cheers.
  4. Derek Catsam Thursday - 19 / 07 / 2007
    mjmckay -- Thanks for reading and for commenting. Fundamentally, I think your point is fair, and on this issue Kirchick and I agree more than we disagree, though the last line of his piece is "It's too bad the British can't do the job." He certainly finds the idea of a British invasion of Zimbabwe more appealing than I do. But I should have been more fair to, or at least comprehensive in presenting, his argument and to the totality of his piece. This article once again shows that Kirchick is much better at writing articles than he is when he blogs, at which point he teeters between gross irresponsibility, glib fatuousness, and flat-out caricature. In any case, thanks again, and I do hope that you'll continue reading. Cheers -- Derek
  5. JH Friday - 14 / 09 / 2007
    I agree with toddkidd's statement "The "WEST" want to maintain white priviledge in Zimbabwe; they don't really care about black people owning and prospering on their own native land." That is what this is really all about. What a tragedy for this to happen to white farmers ! No one ever mentions how this land was acquired however unfortunate Mugabe choice of actions are. You see part of the problems the continued patronization of Africans about how they can fix Africa whilst everyone is here for resources and we know it. How else would some western European countries with no resources have prospered with all their "lack of resources"? I am Kenyan and one of the things I know is that African countries initally get into debt (World Bank) buying back land from previous white owners of land that was never bought. I am sure this will true of SA more and more too. I also say from experience that they will come back and this time they will buy the land because it is sort of home for them -- he has not seen the last of them. But, at least they will have bought the land I find that better inspite of clear economic advantages coming all the way from colonialism. Imagine however in the meantime how the common African is supposed to feel about all this and white people. Mugabe right or wrong gives them a sense of satisfaction and justice. For Africans these are the choices: starve or be completeley servile mind and body to a few thousand white farmers in countries with millions of people. (SA, Kenya and Zim). what a choice and life !
  6. Derek Catsam Wednesday - 19 / 09 / 2007
    Judith -- You agree with Todd about what, precisely? Who here has defended 'the West" or white landownership? I guess I'm not sure against whom you two think you are making brave stances. Beating up strawmen might make you feel good about yourself, but it doesn't do much to further the discussion. dc
  7. x Sunday - 06 / 04 / 2008
    Zimbabweans demand an invasion if rigging continues
  8. Derek Catsam Monday - 07 / 04 / 2008
    My guess is that a South African invasion of Zim is an absolute last recourse. But anything is possible as this fight unfolds. dcat
  9. Ian Sunday - 22 / 06 / 2008
    In lieu of today's decision by the MDC to go forth will a pull out of the election, I believe the logicality of invasion of Zimbabwe to dispose of Mugabe's leadership has been vaulted somewhat. Given Tsvangirai's plea to the United Nations, African Union and SADC for interevention, and the widespread coverage seeming propagating itself slowing across western media (the recent footage shot by the US Embassy staff springs to mind), tends to lead me to believe that the political support for an invasion of Zimbabwe is steadily growing. As for the viability of a British-led invasion of Zimbabwe, the chances of the British leading such an action are extremely doubtful, as Brown would in all likelihood prove overly concerned with the appearance of such an action giving ammunition to opposition groups to suggest he is nothing more than yet another "Bush Lackey". As for actual intervention, the most logical situation I could formulate would be a sort of Persian Gulf War-esque UN led affair, spearheaded by neighboring South African nations with widespread aerial assistance provided by the United Kingdom and United States to remove the Mugabe government. The merits of such a war (under international support) would eliminate much of the imperialistic concerns that would be features of a British-led effort, and the humanitarian perspective of such an action could also serve to shine the governments of surrounding nations in a positive light.
  10. Derek Catsam Monday - 23 / 06 / 2008
    Ian -- Invasion seems like a distant possibility at best, whatever the merits of your case. Simply speaking out against Mugabe publicly would be a huge step for Thabo Mbeki, forget supporting an invasion. If you are interested in Zimbabwe, I'd like to suggest that you go over to the FPA Africa blog, where I have moved my Zimbabwe (and other non-SA) coverage. The url is: http://africa.foreignpolicyblogs.com/ Best -- dc
  11. Danny Britishpatriot Tuesday - 01 / 07 / 2008
    A British invasion of Zimbabwe? I am well knowledgeable about history, however, i will not mentino that yet, and concontrate on what is happening right now, an di will not yet relate to Iraq or Vietnam ect. It is a certainty that regime change is needed. Whit men are being beaten, killed and persecuted. Even in the last few days, a white father and son were beaten to within an inch of death by 50 black men. These men were members of Mugabe's regime. Futhermore, many of the black populatin fully oppose Mugame and his regime. In fact, they oppose it so much, that they have been arrested, forced to vote Mugabe, at penalty of death, and three feet away from their idnappers, voted Morgan Changary(i am not certain how his name is spelt, but the point is valid). It is clear that very few people support Mugabe, sincerely. Mugabe has no care for any member of his nation, and is completely ignorrant of the other nations. He has said the British can go and hang, and that only God can remove him from power. He is therefore, a self declated dictatot, and now, i shall refer to history. In Iraq, Saddam was a dictator, and we invaded. In Germany, Hitler was a dictater, and we invaded, why are we even considering NOT invading? It has to be done, unles God swiftly decided Mugabe should step down, and still, there are three reasons why that may not work. 1. God is not real. 2. God never removed Hitler, so why would he Mugabe 3. Mugabe would most likely declare a vote whether his citizens supported him, or God and the process with the opposition would be repeated. The British once owned Zimbabwe, and South Africa. Now, i am not being racist when i say this, but in Zimbabwe, when the whites owned it, and the blacks did not, all was well. Now, when the last white ruler of Zimbabwe said ther Blacks could not rule their own country, it sounded outragous, and if i was around then i would call him a racist, but he was utterly, and undoubtably correct. The British modernised and fairly ruled much of the world once, we taught America, Australia, India, al the rest, many lessons on how to live and progress... Zimbabwe has forgotten them, and they forgot them by choice. I have only lived for 15 years, so i hope to live the majority of them in a British occupied Zimbabwe, or a fairy ruled Zimbabwe occupied Zimbabwe.
  12. Danny Britishpatriot Tuesday - 01 / 07 / 2008
    p.s my spelling mistakes are caused by a poor keyboard, not poor grammer lol
  13. Ryan Paul Wednesday - 02 / 07 / 2008
    Anyone who says the west wants to retain white privilege in Zimbabwe is plainly an idiot. Despite what people might think... not all white people are out to keep down my people. Zimbabwe is a cess pit created entirely by Robert Mugabe. Any damage colonisation might have caused has had ample time to be fixed by Robert Mugabe. Anyone who supports Robert Mugabe should be shot in the back of the head and dumped in a ditch. His advocation of violence... murder and rape of white families during this ass-backwards way of land reforming is abominable. I wrote a blog stating I wished somebody would assassinate that old fool to get him out of the way. Zimbabwe has plenty of potential which could be driven by ALL Zimbabweans of any race... but it will never fulfill that potential as long as Zanu-PF is in power. If Britain decided to invade Zimbabwe to remove Robert Mugabe, I'd be the first to volunteer to participate.
  14. Derek Catsam Thursday - 03 / 07 / 2008
    Ryan and Danny -- Thanks for the contributions. On the issue of an invasion -- it is only even remotely plausible, politically, pragmatically, and even ideologically, if it is led and supported by African leaders and their countries and if it were to come from the AU or SADC. There are indeed whites suffering under Mugabe, but the real tragedy is the millions among the black masses who are suffering at his hands, or at those of ZANU-PF. Colonialism does matter, however. Colonialism provides the very framework withing Mugabe operates. The imperial era and the settler colonialism of Rhodesia against which Mugabe fought now allows him to cloak himself in the mantel of anticolonial hero. It is that very revolutionary past against which African leaders are unwilling to speak. One can easily say that without colonialism, Mugabe might not even be able to exist. He certainly would have little rationale for gaining power. Colonialism definitely matters, but it certainly should not be the ultimate issue we address when confronting the Zimbabwe situation. Thanks for reading. Derek Catsam
  15. macnay Sunday - 06 / 07 / 2008
    surely a zimbabwe under british rule woud e etter then a zimawe under zanu pf rule. Yes, some would disaprove of it, but when the population realised the british were not killing an dmurdering civilians, they would embrace them. i only hope the us do not invade, with ther policy of being a Yankee wild ass, shooting the plce up and shouting god bless america. If the British did it, i am sure they ould be far etter than zanu pf, usa, and eventually, return sef rule to zimbabwe, under a fair gouvernment.
  16. Derek Catsam Saturday - 12 / 07 / 2008
    Macnay -- I pretty much disagree with everything you argue here. First off, why this silly dichotomy of a british invasion and neocolonialism or else ZANU-PF? Why on earth ignore the other, probably more supported, political faction? the dichotomy is not new colonialism or Mugabe. It is Mugabe or some other, better African, Zimbabwean leadership. Second, let's stop this absurd nonsense about the US. I'm no fan of recent US policies abroad in most cases, but really, britain would be better? Britain that supported the US invasion of Iraq? britain that allowed for colonial rule in Zim and elsewhere in Africa? Lt's not draw the world in cartoon figures, shall we? I'm an American, and frankly find the "Yankee wild ass" comments to be idiotic, offensive, blind to global realities, and generally annoying. There is lots of room for criticism of American foreign policy. Probably those from the land that gave us "rule Brittania" and an empire upon which they proudly asserted that the sun never set probably ought to be wary of proclaiming their human rights supriority, don't you think? dc
  17. macnay Monday - 14 / 07 / 2008
    first, the wild ass remark was simply a way of showing the careless, and thoughtless invasion of iraq by america, and the fact that americans have a rather hands on, act now, think later, aproach to the world and it's affairs. now, you say you, or rather imply you oppose colonialism. Well, an invasion of Zimbabwe will be no more colonial than the us invasion of iraq, an invasion which i supported, for saddam had to go, as does Mugabe. Also, i beieve colonialism was a good thing. Without it, you americans would not exist, for you are descendants of the british, as are australians, canadians, and so on. Also, we furthered the progress of human development, not just britain, but france, spain, rome, Byzantium, messopotamia, etc, for if we did not unite, in any form, we would be seperate, unable to communicate, and we would be backward. ofcourse, in this day and age, colonialism would be wrong. now, Britain is a multicultural society, filled with those from nations once owned by us. yes, once, we went out to them, now, they come to us, and we live in a world peaceful, unified in many many ways, and it is so, thanks to the discoveries, places and empires made by france, britain, rome, sweden, portugal, and yes, in a very similar way, very similar, America. If i offended you, i am sorry, but if we are to debate, may we do it in a way where we read each others comments, not looking for faults, but looking to learn from each other, and reason. i get the impressin you are a learned man.
  18. macnay Friday - 01 / 08 / 2008
    not bothering to reply?
  19. Derek Catsam Tuesday - 05 / 08 / 2008
    Macnay -- Imagine this: Top of my list of priorities when I have been out of the country or otherwise away from home for most of the last two weeks has not been replying to your comments on a blog post I wrote more than a year ago has not been a priority for me. i apologize and will respond in full to your comments now. I will place your words in quotation marks and will precede mine with ***: "first, the wild ass remark was simply a way of showing the careless, and thoughtless invasion of iraq by america, and the fact that Americans have a rather hands on, act now, think later, aproach to the world and it's affairs." *** Maybe so, but it is also irrelevant to the discussion we are having. Fight your strawmen and grind your axes about the US somewhere else and address things I have written or argued. I am going to demand that much courtesy. "now, you say you, or rather imply you oppose colonialism." *** because colonialism was a catastrophe for Africa. Categorically and undeniably. "Well, an invasion of Zimbabwe will be no more colonial than the us invasion of iraq, an invasion which i supported, for saddam had to go, as does Mugabe." *** Not for people who know what the word "colonial" means. For one thing, the US never held Iraq as a colony. Great Britain did. That's more than a marginal difference. "Also, i beieve colonialism was a good thing. Without it, you americans would not exist, for you are descendants of the british, as are australians, canadians, and so on." *** This is, not to put too fine a point on it, a very, very, very dumb argument. Yes, America exists as a nation state because it BROKE FREE from intolerable colonialism. But the idea that the colonialism that eventually led to the US declaring revolution is comparable to the colonization of Africa is ahistorical piffle. I am not going to give you a primer on what colonialism did to Africa. I'm simply not. "Also, we furthered the progress of human development, not just britain, but france, spain, rome, Byzantium, messopotamia, etc, for if we did not unite, in any form, we would be seperate, unable to communicate, and we would be backward." *** Who is this royal we to whom you refer? And of what possible use is this generalization about uniting (Europe? United? Are you unfamiliar with Europe's history?) "ofcourse, in this day and age, colonialism would be wrong." *** So why the hell are you defending it? I am losing your argument here, I have to admit. "now, Britain is a multicultural society, filled with those from nations once owned by us." *** So that justifies the whole endeavor? " yes, once, we went out to them, now, they come to us, and we live in a world peaceful, unified in many many ways, and it is so, thanks to the discoveries, places and empires made by france, britain, rome, sweden, portugal, and yes, in a very similar way, very similar, America." *** Um, Europeans did not discover Africa. It was there. It was thriving. The colonial era destroyed Africa. It is clear you have no idea what, say, the Portuguese did in Africa. "If i offended you, i am sorry, but if we are to debate, may we do it in a way where we read each others comments, not looking for faults, but looking to learn from each other, and reason." *** Yeah, kumbaya and all that, but come on, man. You say objectionable things and then don't want those objectionable things pointed out? " i get the impressin you are a learned man." I have a PhD and am a university professor, for what it's worth. Best -- Derek Catsam
  20. macnay Tuesday - 05 / 08 / 2008
    i defend colonialism, for it furthered the world. Now you may not agree with this, as Americans have been brought up to hate it, but if you look at Africa now, all the genocide commited to its own people, since the Britrish and French left, is no where near as bad as when they were owning it. Just because you have a PhD, does not mean your opinoins are right, for instance, on the basis of colonialism, there are many good points for and against, and for one to say it is a very, veryetc, dumb arguement is, very very dumb, especially for a PhD. Americans are descendants of the Britis,as are the Canadians, except the Quebecians, Australians, so on, they are, that is a fact. It therefore shows, no matter how much you hate colonialism, you are a result of it, and a powerful nation of America was spawned from it. Also, for a PhD, i find yourpatronising, and somewhat childish tones a little bit insulting, as i have already apologised for mine. We did not discover Africa, i never said that, Africa had been part ofother empires, including Alexander's the great. When i say, 'went out to them', i did not mean discovered. Also, by saying we are multicultural, i am not justifying anything, for colonialism does not need justification, especially when it colonised two continents, and furthered other nations progress. Yes, however, home rule should be granted when asked for, but with out colonialism, the world would still be based in Europe and asia. when i say we, i mean the colonial powers, yes, i am only 15, but my knowledge on european history is very good, from the holy roman empire, its spliting into Germany anf France, the Germanic tribes who COLONISED Europe, the wars of the 17th and 18th century, all the empires, all the royal families, Bourbon, Hapsburg, Hohonzollern. i like debates, and i dont mind opinions clashing. I do mind blatent attemts to humiliate and demonise. Also, if the only reason you will quote me, is to try and humiliate me, please dont, please actually put your point of view across, and whats more, explain why it is your point of view, andplease, not in an agressive way. i know on differentcontinents, it is hard to easily percive the other persons mood, but i am calm, and understanding, not a word i said was intednded to put you down, and i would like to continue our talk in peace. Daniel McNay
  21. Derek Catsam Tuesday - 05 / 08 / 2008
    Same deal as before, your words in quotations (to make sure you do not accuse me of misrepresenting you), mine prefaced with ***. "i defend colonialism, for it furthered the world. Now you may not agree with this, as Americans have been brought up to hate it, but if you look at Africa now, all the genocide commited to its own people, since the Britrish and French left, is no where near as bad as when they were owning it." *** Really? You are, I assume, familiar with the slave trade and its millions dead, which was the direct result of British policies? You are familiar with the Belgian Congo and its untold millions murdered? You are familiar with the history of the Brits in Kenya, or in South Africa? The idea that colonialism was somehow benign is historically indefensible. "Just because you have a PhD, does not mean your opinoins are right, for instance, on the basis of colonialism, there are many good points for and against, and for one to say it is a very, veryetc, dumb arguement is, very very dumb, especially for a PhD." *** I'd argue that while anyone can have an opinion, there is no plausible way for you to assert that on African matters we are equals, that your opinion is equally valid. I am not, after all, reading your writing on Africa. "Americans are descendants of the Britis,as are the Canadians, except the Quebecians, Australians, so on, they are, that is a fact." *** America exists because it rebelled against England -- it broke away from colonialism. I have exactly zero English in my heritage. So while at one time we were a British colony, we broke away from England --- this fact redounds to my argument and not to yours: America exists because it rejected colonialism, not because of the awesomeness of colonialism. "It therefore shows, no matter how much you hate colonialism, you are a result of it, and a powerful nation of America was spawned from it." *** Again, we exist because we broke away from it, which is the opposite of what you are arguing. "Also, for a PhD, i find yourpatronising, and somewhat childish tones a little bit insulting, as i have already apologised for mine." *** You know what, I've been very kind here given the approach you have taken, given that you clearly do not know this history, that you have clearly reads none of the i,portant literature, and that for all of your sense of your rightness you have not bothered with some of the rudiments of presenting an argument other than to assert things to be true in the face of someone who knows much more than you do. "We did not discover Africa, i never said that, Africa had been part ofother empires, including Alexander's the great." *** You used the word discover. If that is not what you meant to write you should now have written it. "When i say, "went out to them', i did not mean discovered." *** But you also used the word "discovered." You did. "Also, by saying we are multicultural, i am not justifying anything, for colonialism does not need justification, especially when it colonised two continents, and furthered other nations progress." *** Once again you insist on this belief that colonialism "furthered other nations progress" despite all evidence to the contrary. What scholars on Africa agree with you? Wat progress are you talking about? Why is it that every African colony urged for freedom? EWhy did not choose to remain under the metropole? You know more than I do about colonialism, and apparently also know what's best for Africans despite what they desired. "Yes, however, home rule should be granted when asked for, but with out colonialism, the world would still be based in Europe and asia." *** I honestly have no idea what this means. "when i say we, i mean the colonial powers, yes, i am only 15, but my knowledge on european history is very good, from the holy roman empire, its spliting into Germany anf France, the Germanic tribes who COLONISED Europe, the wars of the 17th and 18th century, all the empires, all the royal families, Bourbon, Hapsburg, Hohonzollern." *** Look, kid, a 15 year old who asserts his expertise on any sort of history is just asking for trouble. You have no idea what you don't know. "i like debates, and i dont mind opinions clashing. I do mind blatent attemts to humiliate and demonise." *** there are no "blatant attempts to humiliate and demonise." But when you come in here and make all of the assertions that you are making and justify the most loathsome racist regimes when it is clear that you do not know what you don't know and when you feign being equals with someone who is qualified enough to be writing stuff that you tracked down to read, don't complain when your nose gets bloodied. "Also, if the only reason you will quote me, is to try and humiliate me, please dont, please actually put your point of view across, and whats more, explain why it is your point of view, andplease, not in an agressive way." *** If quoting you humiliates you, how is that my fault? "i know on differentcontinents, it is hard to easily percive the other persons mood, but i am calm, and understanding, not a word i said was intednded to put you down, and i would like to continue our talk in peace." *** I've traveled and lived on other continents, so that seems like a red herring. You need to read more on African history. It is as simple as that. And if you want to continue to comment, please read the rest of the blog and comment on more contemporary posts -- I initially wrote this one more than a year ago. Go to the main blog, and read and learn before asserting yourself. You do not know what you do not know. You need to be aware of this. Yiu do not know enough about the history of colonialism to argue with someone who teaches university courses on colonialism. A little humility would go a long way. dc
  22. macnay Tuesday - 05 / 08 / 2008
    okay, i will try and be clearer. When i say the world would be only asia and europe without colonialism, i mean it because, america would not exist, neither would australia without us. yes, you broke from us, but you would nothave been able to break from us, had we not went therein the first place, and yes, i know about the Belgian congo, etc, but it is much worse now. however, despite British attrocities that have been commitet, america are not innocent. look at the Phillipines, do you know that History? About how an order was given to kill every child over the age of ten, for the crime of being born ten years after american occupation of the islands. How can you say america are not, in any sense of the word, colonial, when phillipines fought for independence, and you did that, and beat them in thewar, and occupied them until 1945? Fyrthermore, i would call the occupation of the american wast, clonialism, blatently taking lands from the natives. yes, i know a lot more than you may think. give me a topoc, and i will tell you all i know.
  23. macnay Tuesday - 05 / 08 / 2008
    yes, i am farmiliar with the slave trade, but we banned it in 1807. you kept slavery going until the 1870s.
  24. Derek Catsam Tuesday - 05 / 08 / 2008
    Daniel -- I'm done with you. You cleasrly know all that there is to know. You cannot be told. You are 15 years old and yet you come in with assertions so broad and so misinformed that it is no longer worth it to address you. You ask questions about whether I am aware of US behavior in the Phillipines, which is a crazy thing to ask a history professor, especially one who also teaches US history (and who has a book coming out on US race relations this fall). Let us go under an assumption: there is probably no area of history you know more about than I do. I am a university professor. You are a 15 year old with axes to grind who has asserted that the slave trade in the US ended in the US in the 1870s and who apparently believes that Britain gave up all involvement with slavery in 1807 despite the fact that the US also banned the Transatlantic slave trade at the same time that Britain did. If you are assering that the Congo today is worse than the Belgian Congo was (the estimates are that 10 million died during the period before WWI and ater 1884) , you have no interest in learning. Seriously -- you are acting like a know-it-all smartass about history in an argument with a history professor whose work you are reading. I will engage you on current posts. We are done here. dc
  25. macnay Tuesday - 05 / 08 / 2008
    okay, we are done, but first, i would like to say some things. 1. yes, i believe there are many topics i know more about than you, Holy Roman empire, for example. 2. PLease don't use ageas a factor, it is verypatronising. 3. I understand about the Belgian Congo. 4. I know Britain kept slavery going until 1835, it still beats you. 4. i love to learn, and if we could talk civily, we could teach each other, becaus even you must not know it all, i know i dont. So, if we are done for good, fair enough. Maybe we could talk about something else if this gets you to angry, maybe about how football, real football, english football, is better than American football and baseball, ha ha.
  26. Derek Catsam Tuesday - 05 / 08 / 2008
    Ok, one last one because i am a glutton for punishment. 1. yes, i believe there are many topics i know more about than you, Holy Roman empire, for example. *** How do you have any idea what I know about the Holy Roman Empire? I have a PhD field in European history, claim no expertise on that area, but am pretty certain that your claims of expertise would be revealed as what they are -- the claims of someone who does not know what he does not know. 2. PLease don't use ageas a factor, it is verypatronising. *** You raised the age question. There is nothing patronizing about pointing out that your age might be a problem when you are asserting authorioty as you are here. 3. I understand about the Belgian Congo. *** Apparently not, as you asserted moments ago that the current situation in the Congo is worse than what it was under colonialism. 4. I know Britain kept slavery going until 1835, it still beats you. *** It still "beats me"? What the hell are you talking about? We are discussing African issues. I do not represent the US and this is not some race about one nation's perfidy against another. Seriously" "it still beats you"? 4. i love to learn, and if we could talk civily, we could teach each other, becaus even you must not know it all, i know i dont. So, if we are done for good, fair enough. Maybe we could talk about something else if this gets you to angry, maybe about how football, real football, english football, is better than American football and baseball, ha ha. *** As I've said a number of times now: If you want to weigh in on recent posts I will be happy to see you comment there. This post is more than a year old. Sports talk is fine if I post about sports. This is not a chatline. I will delete future comments on this post, as I've made it quite clear that the blog has moved on from this post on Zimbabwe from a year and a month ago. dc
  27. macnay Wednesday - 06 / 08 / 2008
    fine, tell me what blog to go on. i still stand firm on my holy roman empire theory, though, and yes, the belgian congo was bad, but mean colonialism in africa, on a whole.of course, congo was terrible. the slavery comment was merely showing youthat i did not believe slavery ended in 1807, as you prematuraly thought, and yes, it beats america. that was an attempt at lightening you up, but it did the opposite. I stil believe i know more on certain topics tha you, age is no factor, i know all about the merovingians, Capetians, Carologians, Hapsburgs, Bourbons, Saxons, Ostrogiths, etc, in great detail. yes, you may delete this if it will make you feel better, but tell me where to postmy next comment, first, and i will do so.maybe we can start again, a bit light heartedly.
  28. Derek Catsam Wednesday - 06 / 08 / 2008
    How can you possibly know what I know about the Holy Roman Empire? I "prematurely" thpught nothing -- you wrote what you wrote. Every time you write some daft thing and I call you on it you backtrack. Be clear in your writing. And how about at least an effort at coherent sentence structure. Typos are one thing, but an utter lack of punctuation and sentence structure puts the lie to your claims of being all knowing. And please, please, please, stop telling me what you "know all about." That is en enormous slap in the face to the people who have devoted their lives to actually knowing about things. You do not know "all about" anything. Actually, no one does. http://southafrica.foreignpolicyblogs.com Stay on topic. This is a serious blog written for a serious organization about serious issues. Stray or act like a twit and you'll find yourself shut out. Otherwise, I'll see you down the road. dc
  29. macnay Wednesday - 06 / 08 / 2008
    do you love having th last word? doesn't matter if it is innacurate. Act you age, and delete all of them, or none of them,
  30. Derek Catsam Wednesday - 06 / 08 / 2008
    First off, you don't get to set the rules here. Second, I have said several times that I will delete anything more here from here on out. I made clear that the conversation is done, and I have asked you not to post any more. You constantly have defied that request. My only recourse has thus been to delete your attempt to have a flame war or to have the last word. I have repeatedly told you that you are welcome to post comments, if you stay on topic, on new posts at this blog. I have, in sum, bent over backward not to delete or censor you. But after all of that you insist on posting comments that do not contribute to the discussion. As for deleting all of the comments, I will not do so because you are not the only person who has commented here and I fundamentally do not want to delete the entire record here, and I do believe that my editors at the Foreign Policy Association would prefer that I not delete every comment here. So yes, on this blog, which I keep for the Foreign Policy Association as someone with a long record of commentary and writing on Africa, if I choose to have the last word, I will have the last word. I have written nothing inaccurate and I have given you your platform. Now, unless you want every post of yours to be diverted as spam, I am going to ask again that you allow this conversation to end. I am happy to have you comment as appropriate on contemporary posts. This one is more than a year old and is done. If you cannot respect that, I am sorry. You told me that you just wanted the link to the main page of the blog. I have given you that. You have insisted upon adding comments. I do not know what more I can ask for. Please end this now. dc
  31. Russ Curenton Wednesday - 06 / 08 / 2008
    Not meaning to sound racist here, but let's face it...until the arrival of the hated white man, not one single African nation had escaped the Stone Age... And likewise, as soon as the hated white man left, 100% of the former colonial nations headed willy-nilly BACK TO THE STONE AGE... I propose, for your consideration, that the STONE AGE is the natural condition of the indigenous inhabitants of sub-Saharan Africa...