In an exclusive interview with the FPA Israel Blog last week, Colonel (Ret.) David Hacham – a top adviser on Palestinian and Arab affairs to Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak – unequivocally stated that Israel’s next major military campaign in the Gaza Strip will result in a complete destruction of Hamas’ terror infrastructure and outlined several potential red lines that could ignite this retaliation.
As rocket fire from Gaza continues, with a shell striking a school bus last week, the prospects of such an Israeli strike on terror are increasing. Israel’s last major campaign on Gaza – Operation Cast Lead – resulted in some subsequent reduction in rocket fire, but a resurgence of terror in the last few weeks could spark an Israeli campaign that will likely include thousands of deaths, many of whom are likely to be civilians. As I’ve written before, Hamas has a choice whether to engage in a meaningful peace dialogue, or face the wrath of Israel as described by Hacham.
As always, here are the quick notes for those restless readers:
(Some parts of the transcript were rearranged or deleted for clarity and to streamline the interview, but Hacham’s comments are direct quotes. Hacham was in Washington D.C. with The Israel Project, which organized the interview.)
The interior of the bus hit by a Gaza rocket last week
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: There has been the suggestion that if rocket fire continues from Gaza, Israel will launch an attack that turns Gaza into a graveyard and makes Operation Cast Lead look like a training exercise, especially if rockets start hitting Tel Aviv.
HACHAM: Of course I cannot speculate on the future of Israeli steps that will be taken vis-a-vis Gaza. But, it must be clear that the primary goal of the Israeli government will be to see the lives of the Israelis in the area, adjacent to Gaza is going to be preserved. I think that if God forbids this aggression is going to be continued and unfortunately Israeli people are going to be killed, this is going to change the strategy of Israel in terms of having the military operation inside Gaza. I don’t want to give you the profile of this military operation; I’m speaking in principle. Israel won’t have any other choice but to act against the terror infrastructure in Gaza. This must be understood. We cannot say this is rain falling on our heads. And, in this military action, Israel will have to think about it very seriously to stop this aggression of terrorism.
I cannot give yo a profile or the shape of this military operation, but Israel will not be silent as the lives of Israelis are in danger. This must be understood.
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: Would this dismantling of the terror infrastructure be ground-based or primarily with the air force?
HACHAM: I don’t want to enter into details about the Israeli operations. But all what is necessary will be taken by the Israeli military. All what is necessary and all that will neutralize the threat which is stemming from Gaza.
I don’t want to enter into technical details, whether ground forces are going to enter here or here. The principle is to be understood that we are not going to be silent and to see this still going on and Israel is going to be paralyzed and not take any action. Our very goal is to defend the lives of Israelis. This is what we are going to do.
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: During Operation Cast Lead these was some disagreement from top cabinet officials on when to stop the campaign. Without specifics on strategy, how do you envision the mentality in the next strike, would there be less of a reluctance to continue an attack for longer and with more force?
HACHAM: I can tell you something very much, I mean, which is the basis of the Israeli policy nowadays. Of course, I cannot enter into specifics about what kind of military actions will be taken, but something in principle which will be very much important. I think this time Israel won’t be like tied in the hands in terms of a military operation inside Gaza. It doesn’t mean necessarily that we are going to conquer Gaza again. I was in Gaza eight years, you know what is the consequence of conquering Gaza? But I think this time we are going to act in a very severe way, not necessarily conquering the Gaza Strip, the territory, but to be more aggressive in terms of trying to smash the terror infrastructure, first and foremost of Hamas in Gaza. This is very much clear. We are not going to have another round, another round, and to have suffering time and again from the rockets in Gaza. I mean, something very much strong has to be taken in order to cope with this threat stemming from Gaza. Again, I’m not entering into any tactical moves, whether it will be a conquer of Gaza, whether ground forces will act, et cetera. But, it must be understood that this time we are not going to be silent. Again, as I’ve told you before, if God forbid there will be a family killed, there will be a kindergarten hit, unfortunately, it will change the overall strategy of the Israeli government.
Now we are trying to be more sensitive to understand the situation in the area. But, not anymore in the future if these kinds of operations are going to take place in the Gaza area.
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: What’s the red line that would lead to an Israeli strike?
HACHAM: Listen, it’s very hard to say red lines because at the end of the day it’s a political decision. It’s a decision taken by the government, by [Prime Minister Benyamin] Netanyahu, by [Defense Minister Ehud] Barak. But, what I think in principle, Israel is not going to tolerate a continuous aggression with results that Israel cannot stand. Unfortunately, if people are going to be killed, kindergartens are being, you know, hit, children, this is something that really is a red line from the Israeli point of view. Israel will have to take very hard decisions about trying to hit Hamas and other terror organizations inside the Gaza strip area.
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: What about rocket fire that strikes Tel Aviv even in an open area?
HACHAM: This is for sure a red line. We saw some signs of this phenomenon recently. Rockets in Beer Sheva. Rockets in Ashdod, you know, it’s 70 km from Gaza. This is something that Israel is not going to tolerate in the future and this must be understood. You know, of course, the position, the inhabitants in the southern part of Israel against the government saying ‘guys, you promised us quiet and this is rain of rockets on our heads.’ This is not going to continue like this if, I’m saying if again, the government will have to take these serious decisions to protect the Israeli civilians. This must be understood.
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: Israel’s hands wouldn’t be tied like in Cast Lead –
HAHAM: They were not tied in Cast Lead. There were differences of opinion in the government. At the end of the day, they decided to stop after one month the Operation Cast Lead in Gaza. There are still people who think it was a mistaken move by the Israeli government because when we entered Gaza we had to complete the job in Gaza, to smash the infrastructure of Hamas in the area. But again, we’re against another conquer of Gaza by the Israeli forces and all the implications of being again in Gaza. I was in Gaza eight years. I know the cost of being in Gaza. We will have to impose again a military government in Gaza with all the implications of a military government. We will have to take care of the population. We are speaking today of 1.5 million in Gaza, the majority are still in eight refugee camps all along the Gaza strip. You must understand the basic data about whats going on in Gaza.
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: What would be some of the ropes that will not tie Israel’s hands in such a strike?
HACHAM: No ties are going to limit Israel next time. Listen, a responsible government any place in the world, they have to take the first priority, the first issue on the agenda is to protect your own people, to prevent terrorism from being perpetrated, terrorist acts against your civilians. I mean this is something very much understood. If your defense or security is being threatened by any other party, you have to take the necessary actions in order to neutralize this threat. This applies to Israel as well.
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: The situation in Egypt has certainly changed the landscape, and now there’s been the suggestion that an Israeli attack on Gaza would result in Egypt opening the Rafah border crossing.
HACHAM: You have to take into consideration one basic issue. We, from the Israeli point of view, we have a solid interest that the peace relations, that the peace treaty will remain with Egypt. This is a pillar in the Israeli strategy vis-a-vis, in the area as a whole. The same applies for the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. Now, we are not going, and not in the past, to interfere in what is going on right now in the Arab world. We have not any role to play in what’s going on in the Arab political system in Arab societies. We are trying to escape form this issue as much as possible. We have no role to play in what’s going on in the Arab world and this must be very much clear and understood.
Of course we have our own interests. As I told you before we want to see our peace treaty with both Jordan and Egypt being valid in the future as it was until today. We know this is not an ideal peaceful relations, because it’s more on the surface and not peaceful relations with the people themselves. But, at the end of the day, this is better than animosity, hostility and war. Maybe you can agree with me. In the same breath, I would like to see, at the end of the day, in the Arab world, political systems or regimes that first and foremost will act in favor of their own people, not necessarily would be democratic. If this is the will of the people, it’s OK. This is wonderful. At the end of the day, we would like to see regimes – stable, stability, being able to take pragmatic, rationale decisions and being able to take, when we are speaking about Syria and Lebanon, decisions that will enlarge the circle of peace in the area and the recognition of the very existence of Israel as an independent sovereign state in the area of the Middle East. This was the goal [Israel’s first Prime Minister David] Ben Gurion, when he established and created the state of Israel, and this goal is still valid today. You have to understand this, this is like essence, something like which is very much basic to understand the Israeli policy in the area. So, the Egyptian people are free to elect whatever president, whatever government system in Egypt. While, of course, from our point of you, it’s very important that peaceful relations are still going to be valid.
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: Is that feasible with the Muslim Brotherhood?
HACHAM: The Muslim Brotherhood has an agenda which does not go in hand with the Israeli approach because, at the end of the day, if this is the position in Cairo and the ideology of the Ichwan al-Muslimeen is not so much in favor of Israel. You have to understand that Hamas in Gaza, in the territories, is not but a branch offspring of Ichwan al-Muslimeen in Egypt. It must be taken into consideration.
What I understand is they are going to have democratic political life in Egypt. They are going to have elections to the Majilis Al-Sha’ab, to the parliament, the Egyptian parliament. At the end of the day, we would like and hope there will be continuity in terms of the policy lines taken by the Egyptian president.
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: Mohamed El-Baradei has suggested that if Israel attacks Gaza, he would open the Rafah border crossing. Isn’t that a strong political position to take?
HACHAM: I would like to say to you from the Israeli point view, we don’t want another military campaign, another military operation in Gaza. At the same time, we are totally against the shooting that is continuing from the Gaza area. At the end of the day, we, as Israelis, we have to take into consideration one single aspect – defending or saving our population in the area which is adjacent to the Gaza Strip. So, if God forbid, the shooting will continue from Gaza and people will unfortunately be killed, it’s a totally different algorithm. Israel will have to take decisive actions in order to stop these actions. But again, I would like to emphasize this, we are not in favor of making another military campaign, another military operation in Gaza.
This is why I think that a declaration of this regard, an opening of Rafah, is not needed now. This is not the policy line of Israel to have another military operation.
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: Isn’t that though drawing lines in support of Hamas or the Palestinians over Israel?
HACHAM: Look, of course we are not in favor of using the Rafah checkpoint because it can be used for negative purposes – the flow of arms, rockets, the transfer of terrorists from both sides, which is not in favor of Israel’s security. At the end of the day, as I’ve told you before, you have to understand that Hamas in Gaza is nothing more than the Ichwan al-Muslimeen in Egypt. This is the same agenda, the same ideology, the same policy like the Ichwan al-Muslimeen in Egypt. And I don’t think it will be for the benefit of the Egyptian side to see the Rafah checkpoint to be open freely. It has to do with our security of course. Terrorists can come and use Egyptian soil in order to penetrate the Israeli side. We have seen this phenomenon before if the flow of arms and rockets can go freely via Rafah. This is now only like a declaration, but at the end of the day, I think the Egyptians are very much aware of the negative side, the negative declaration.
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: There have been some suggestions that Gazans and Egyptians will topple the Rafah crossing as had been done in the past. Can the Egyptians stop this?
HACHAM: For the time being, the Egyptians are trying to secure the border. Of course you have to see the future what will be the actions and behavior. As of today, they are trying to stop the smuggling but not in a full success because still the underground tunnels are operational. There is a smuggling of arms and ammunition to the Gaza area. We have to wait and see if there is any change in behavior from the Egyptians.
As of now, they understand the security interests of the Israeli side. They are doing what they can do, not fully, in order to secure the borders, but still smuggling is going on. Unfortunately.
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: You said ‘not fully’ – what can the Egyptians do to improve control of the smuggling?
HACHAM: To block the Philadelphia Line. To block the Philadelphia Line fully to stop any smuggling from going on from the Sinai peninsula to the Gaza area. To see and to follow and trace all the terrorists that are coming, going and to prevent them from coming to the Sinai area from Gaza, to prevent the smuggling from Sinai to Gaza, as I’ve said before.
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: Aren’t the Egyptian’s hands a bit tied, though, because they are not allowed to have a major military presence in Sinai, with the exception recently granted by Israel.
HACHAM: Like you said, we agreed now that there will be enforcement, military presence, by the Egyptian army first and foremost to block the terrorists from continuing the smuggling.
It’s not permanent. What we are saying is once they complete their mission, they are to return. We don’t want to see any breach or violations of the peace treaty.
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: A lot has changed in the Middle East over the last two months, to say the least. What did you think you’d be working on two years ago and how has that changed.
HACHAM: First of all, from the Israeli point of view, there’s no change in the strategic goal when we’re speaking about Israel in the area of the Middle East. There’s no change whatsoever. We are part of the Middle East. If you would have asked me two years ago and today I would say the same things. I would like to enlarge the circle of peace in the area, but I’ll put it in another way. I would like to strengthen the peaceful relations that we have with Jordan, with Egypt – 1979, 1994 – and we would like to enlarge the circle of peace in the area with other Arab countries. I mean, I’m speaking of course basically about Syria ad Lebanon. This is something which is still like, I would say, a strategic goal of the state of Israel because at the end of the day we are living in the Middle East and we have to find ways in order to live in peace with our neighbors. It doesn’t mean of course that we are going to assimilate in the area, not in terms of religious determinations, but we are considered to be a western society. We adhere to our values as a Jewish state. And at the same time we have excellent relations with the West, with the western world. We have an excellent relationship with America and we cherish our alliance and our relations with the American administration. This is something which is like basic in regard to the state of Israel.
Two years ago, I would say to you that the primary goal of Israel when I’m speaking about an enlarging of the circle of peace is to promote, to enhance the peaceful negotiations with the Palestinians. These goals remain the same today. We’d like to come to terms with the Palestinians. We, of course, have our own positions, our own demands from negotiations. But, at the end of the day, any solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem must be based on give and take, which means at the end of the day, Israel has to make concessions, as the Palestinians, which will have to make concessions from their side in order to make a compromise between the two positions of Israel and the Palestinians. These are the same goals that remain the goals of the Israeli side.
At the same time you have to understand one basic issue.
You have to understand that, I don’t want to say that Israel is a miracle, but if you take all the basic data about our very existence in the area in the Middle East, it’s really like a miracle because we are 6 million Jews, with the Arab community in Israel we are 7.2 million. We are surrounded by more than [200] millions of Muslims, Arabs in the area. The majority are not, do not want peace with Israel. As a matter of fact, part of the Muslim world would like to annihilate Israel, to exterminate and this is something which has to do with something that we would like to preserve our military might, our military power in the area in order to neutralize the state vis-a-vis any aggression and attempt by our Arab neighbors to annihilate, to exterminate the state of Israel.
This is something which is valued today, yesterday and even more today when taking in consideration the Iranians and their attempts to develop their nuclear military capabilities.
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: What’s your on-the-ground prediction today of what will happen in Egypt?
HACHAM: Of course, I cannot prophesize.
We hope and we think at the end of the day there will be a president, parliament that will be in favor of the continuity of peaceful relations with Israel. This is what we’d like to hope.
And we hope again, as I told you before that these are going to be the policy lines taken by the Egyptian authorities.
FPA ISRAEL BLOG: In this regard is it relevant whether it’s the Muslim Brotherhood or another party?
HACHAM: The Muslim Brotherhood, I of course don’t want to say what will be in the future, but their agenda is known. They say they are going to keep these relations, et cetera. But, this is is something that we have to wait and see. At the end of the day, we would like to see a president, an administration which will believe in keeping and preserving relations with the State of Israel. And I hope these are the signals we are seeing now coming from Egypt that they are going to preserve these policy lines.
